Traveller-digest     Thursday, October 21 1999     Volume 1999 : Number 1240



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Cannon, Background, Etc
Re: GURPS Task System Summary (was Re: Traveller Versions and a visit to the Medieval Starship)
Re: Traveller Nanotech
Re: Drive DestructionSequencing
Re: Seven Samurai
Re: Copyright Issues with SJG (was: GT: Starships)
Re: "new" critter
RE: Important: The Kinunir Warrant!
RE: Ditzie's Warrant Followup
RE: Copyright Issues with SJG (was: GT: Starships)
RE: "new" critter [OT]
Re: Canon, background, etc
Re: Copyright Issues with SJG

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 22:37:48 +0100
From: "Matthew Bond" <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Cannon, Background, Etc

- -----Original Message-----
From: William F. Hostman <aramis@gci.net>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: 21 October 1999 03:36
Subject: Re: Cannon, Background, Etc


>TNE's Regency Sourcebook is a good set of UPP data immediately post-CT and
>also the TNE era data; it may or may not have materials you want. If you
>still read UPP's, it is a good bit, and it includes a good bit of Domain of
>Deneb (Spinward Marches, Reft, Corridor, and ??? sectors [drawing a blank
>and too lazy to look it up...)


errr... Seeing as it's the Domain of *Deneb*, you might of hazarded a guess
at...












wait for it...















Deneb! <g>

Here's to mental blanks!

Matt

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 22:31:30 +0100
From: "Paul Campbell" <kemitixanzantix@freenet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: GURPS Task System Summary (was Re: Traveller Versions and a visit to the Medieval Starship)

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Thanks Eris,  someone had actually replied to me in a private email.  They
actually sent me your post on the matter.  Thanks for looking out for me
though buddy.

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Eris Reddoch <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Sent: Thursday, October 21, 1999 6:03 AM
Subject: GURPS Task System Summary (was Re: Traveller Versions and a visit
to the Medieval Starship)


> On 10/18/99 at 06:37 PM,  "Paul Campbell" <kemitixanzantix@freenet.co.uk>
said:
>
> >> Well, keep in mind that a few task systems that can be grafted on to
GURPS
> >> have come out of the discussion, and more than a few mistaken
assumptions
> >> have been cleared up. It's not like the debate has been completely
> >useless.
> >> I have to say that I've found it rather interesting so far.
> >>
>
> >Forgive me, I'm new to the list.  Does anyone have a summary of the
> >results of that GURPS task system?
>
> I was waiting for someone to answer. I haven't seen anyone do so...
>
> Summary:
>
> 1. Some people want a descriptive task system for GURPS
>
> 2. Some people don't think it matters
>
> 3.  Several suggestions were made for a possible Traveller like Task
> System for GRUPS, all shared the idea of adding or subtracting fixed
> numbers from the appropriate skill for named difficulty levels.  I
> can't do them all justice, but these are the ones I remember as I
> remember them and how I think of them.
>
> In all cases, determine the Difficulty, add the associated modifer
> to the skill, and roll lower on 3d6 with 3 an automatic success and
> 17+ automatic failure.
>
> "This stuff is a piece of cake!"
>
>  +4 Easy
>  +2 Routine
>   0 Difficult
>  -2 Formidable
>  -4 Staggering
>  -6 Impossible
>
>  EX:  Skill 14, Task Staggering,  Roll <= 10 (50%)
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> "It's a Hard, Hard World!"
>
>   +5 Easy
>    0 Routine/Average
>   -5 Difficult
>  -10 Formidable
>  -15 Staggering
>  -20 Impossible
>
>  EX:  Skill 14, Task Staggering, Roll <= -1 (<1%)
> -------------------------------------------------
>
> "A little BITS of heaven!"
>
>   +6 Easy
>   +3 Routine
>    0 Difficult
>   -3 Formidable
>   -6 Staggering
>   -9 Impossible   <-- I reverse
>  -12 Hopeless     <-- these two, myself
>
>  EX:  Skill 14, Task Staggering, Roll <= 8 (26%)
> ------------------------------------------------
>
> The third of these Task Systems seems like the best *to me*, but of
> course, YMMV.
>
>
> Eris
> --
> -----------------------------------------------------------
> "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
> -----------------------------------------------------------
>
>

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Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 23:03:18 +0100
From: "Paul Campbell" <kemitixanzantix@freenet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Traveller Nanotech

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You could have a RedZone with a runaway nano plague, or hunt and retreive
the scientist/terrorist with the vial of modified nanots.  They could be
like a  form of viral agent that doesn't eat people, it eats the crystaliron
hulls of your star ships.



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Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 05:36:43 -0400
From: "Daniel Phelps" <phelpsd@gate.net>
Subject: Re: Drive DestructionSequencing

I have reading the posts on this question and it seems to me that the answer
is moot regarding drive explosions if a different question is asked.   Why
not rig up a deliberately fatal misjump as a fail safe scuttle.   Same time
sequences can be used as in the first question and a body of canon already
exists regarding misjumps.  The GM also has the option of making, under
certain situations, the misjump less than fatal if he/she is feeling
generous.

Dan

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 06:04:42 -0400
From: "Daniel Phelps" <phelpsd@gate.net>
Subject: Re: Seven Samurai

Was written:

There was
>> one with George Peppard, and the guy who played the Man from Uncle and
the
>> actor who played John Boy from the Waltons loosely based on the Seven
>> Samurai, I can't remember the name.
>
>"Battle Beyond the Stars". It's a classic. Bad, but fun.


The sequence was:

1. The Seven Samurai (Samurai classic)
2. The Magnificent Seven (Western classic)
3. Battle Beyond the Stars (so so Sci/Fi John boy in space)

Oddly enough in the latter two one actor played the same role in both.

I have also heard that the story was done by the Italians as a very bad
Gladiator flick but I don't know the title.

Dan

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 18:27:36 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Copyright Issues with SJG (was: GT: Starships)

>Is this the official SJG position: "We already have a forum, so we don't
>need to reference the TML, thank you"?

One key difference with the Pyramid playtest site is that everyone who goes
there has agreed to abide by a non-disclosure agreement, something that is
not a feature of TML membership.

I understood that this is as much to protect SJG from "you stole my idea"
lawsuits as anything else. It's the same reason that many publishing
companies have the "anything you submit becomes our property" clause in
their submissions guidelines.  If someone publishes a whole bunch of
designs on the TML, then SJG publishes very similar ones, that person could
accuse SJG of stealing their work. If the author (in this case Chris)
hasn't read the messages then theft hasn't occured (just plain old
simultaneous discovery).  Which is why Chris won't be reading the starship
messages here.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 18:27:42 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: "new" critter

>Listening to the news, I hear that they've found an *intact* wooly
>mammoth in Siberia. Frozen solid. And they are talking about cloning.
>
>It should be fairly simple. just insert mammoth DNA into an elephant
>ovum, implant the ovum in a female elephant, and in a year or so,
>you'll have a baby mammoth.

Well, you've also got the problem that the baby is growing up inside a
maternal elephant, not a maternal mammoth. The effects of the mother can't
be ignored.

The best explanation of this I've seen is in Figments of Reality (Stewart
and Cohen).  My Dad explained it to my too, but he lost me a lot faster...
(He sometimes forgets that I'm not a PhD biologist.)

I could post a summary of this, but not quickly. Maybe our resident medico
could chip in? Robert?

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 15:45:55 -0700
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: RE: Important: The Kinunir Warrant!

Either way we're all doomed ;)

Haven't had a chance yet as Loren needs me to crank Starports illos ASAFP,
so the Ditzie warrant pic will have to wait until the rush is over.

Best,
Jesse



> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Chris
> Seamans
> Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 1999 4:05 PM
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com
> Subject: Re: Important: The Kinunir Warrant!
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jesse DeGraff <fenris@slip.net>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
> Date: Wednesday, October 20, 1999 4:57 AM
> Subject: RE: Important: The Kinunir Warrant!
>
>
> >I sluff of for a day on answering e-mail, and Chris pulls this!  I 'bout
> >choked on my beer!  Maybe I'll take an hour off of Starports
> tomorrow for a
> >Ditzie cartoon ;)
>
>
> Is that a threat or a promise? Can't wait to see it ;)
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 15:47:31 -0700
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: RE: Ditzie's Warrant Followup

I've a feeling that a business would fail to see the humor in it.  Maybe at
Medieval Starship?  ;)

Jesse



> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Chris
> Seamans
> Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 1999 4:08 PM
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com
> Subject: Re: Ditzie's Warrant Followup
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jesse DeGraff <fenris@slip.net>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
> Date: Wednesday, October 20, 1999 7:32 AM
> Subject: RE: Ditzie's Warrant Followup
>
>
> >LOL!
> >Good series dude!
>
>
> Thank you very much. I'm quite proud of the Imperial credit note. It's
> actually accurate to the specs mentioned in the MT Imperial Encyclopedia!
> Print it out! Pay for your food at the diner with it! ;)
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 15:59:53 -0700
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: RE: Copyright Issues with SJG (was: GT: Starships)

Thanks!

Left to right:  My friend and ex co-worker at my real job Evans Pang, long
time friend Pete Gotcher, Andy's wife (name escapes) and Andy from BITS, old
friend Tim Dougherty (writer on my VFG site), me, and another shot of Pete
(figured no-one could tell it's the same person unless you know ;)  The man
& woman behind the glass in the terminal area (just above & left of the
cargo bot's head) are Poser4 figures.

Best,
Jesse



> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Bont
> Sent: Thursday, October 21, 1999 7:27 AM
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com
> Subject: RE: Copyright Issues with SJG (was: GT: Starships)
>
>
> > You can see the shot at
> > http://www.vision-forge-
> graphics.com/jesse/traveller/starports_cover.h
> > tm as I'd never posted that link on my site.
>
>
> Jesse,
>
> I haven't seen that picture in a long while.  I must say that it _really_
> looks good.  You have an outstanding talent and the imagination to
> put it to use.  Good Job.
>
> BTW ... who are the extras?
>
>
> - - -
> FELIX (Thomas L Bont)
>
> - Encrypt your messages!
>   That way only the government knows what you wrote!
>
> - It is truly the wise man that knows what he doesn't!
>
> - With your shield or on it ... (Old Spartan Blessing)
>
> - Fidelitas super omnia, honore excepto
>
> - Help Stop Forest Fires.  Outlaw Matches.
>
> Be sure to visit The FELIX Cafe at
>      http://www.felixcafe.com/
>
> - - -
>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 16:02:53 -0700
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: RE: "new" critter [OT]

SPLORT!!!  ROFLMAO!!!!!!
Jesse




> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Chris
> Seamans
> Sent: Thursday, October 21, 1999 5:00 AM
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com
> Subject: Re: "new" critter [OT]
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Terry Carlino <carlino@home.com>
> To: Traveller Mailing list <traveller@mpgn.com>
> Date: Thursday, October 21, 1999 3:43 PM
> Subject: Re: "new" critter [OT]
> 
> 
> >Nah, It'll just taste like chicken. ;)
> 
> 
> Well, fine then, Kentucky Fried Dino! ;)
> 
> 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 00:00:37 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Canon, background, etc

Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca> writes:
>My recommendation for a good single source would be the GURPS: Traveller
>main source book.  It contains most of the background up until the
>rebellion.  For the rebellion you're going to need the Imperial
>Encyclopedia.  OTOH, I'm sure that if you list off things you want to know
>about, some TMLer will be more than willing to blather on and on about
>them :-).

For the Rebellion I also recommend the TNE book _Survival Margin_ as it
gives 15 years of TNS background material to use as handouts.

_Hard Times_ is also pretty good if you want to use a collapsing empire
background,

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
                       MiB - Marines in Battledress
   "Protecting the Imperium from the Scum of the Galaxy"
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 15:41:16 -0700
From: Keith Johnson <keithalanjohnson@home.com>
Subject: Re: Copyright Issues with SJG

David,

Sorry for the delay in responding to this.  I wanted to talk to my Secret
Masters before I responded to it.  Rights become extremely complicated when
you consider the net as a publishing medium.  When you post it, you publish
it.  When you submit something that has been posted online to us, there is
_always_ legal issues.  If your future publisher has to wonder if he is
going to get sued or will have to sue, then your submission's survival is
in doubt.

I've responded to your comments below.


At 08:07 PM 10/20/99 -0400, you wrote:
>From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
>Subject: Copyright Issues with SJG (was: GT: Starships)
>
>Dear Folks -
>
>I'm always interested in copyright (mainly to ensure I don't break it on my
>website), so I paid close attention to Chris' comments:
>>I agree: I would much rather fix the sourcebook before it comes out. The
>>only way I can accept those comments is through the official playtest
>>process.
>>
>>> Another point is that once your design is out in the public domain SJG
>>> probably won't use it in their product, which means that the best
>designs
>>> may be rendered unusable. As more readers probably read the official
>books
>>> than the TML, your audience is larger if you get in print.
>>
>>I can't use *anything* that isn't submitted directly to me, for copyright
>>reasons. Anyone who is interested in submitting needs to read the
>>disclaimers on my website:

An important thing to remember, is that the Line Editor sets the parameters
for future developments.  If Kromm or Loren told Chris "Do it this way,
don't do it that way", then Chris is bound to it.  If they said they want
people to directly submit stuff to Chris, rather than pointing Chris to
websites, then that is that.


>This is interesting. For reference, the Imperium Games position regarding
>the TML was quite different:
>
>> [me] However, does sending stuff to these mailing list count as
>"publishing"?
>
>[Matt Machtan, IG] "To respond to your question, no sending 'stuff' to the
>mailing lists does not count as publishing.

That is great that IG felt that way, however considering various legal
issues that have cropped up involving SJ Games and also the entire
publishing industry in relation to the Internet, it isn't as cut and dried
as that.  SJ Games would like to legally cover their hiney while still
being able to let the online fan community flurish.  


>  You may post your future JTAS
>article on say the X-boat or Traveller Digest and get feedback from all of
>the awesome TRAVELLER fans there-in, especially since until you actually
>submit the work WITH A DISCLAIMER FORM, it is not Imperium Games property.
>Note that the whole idea behind the Disclaimer form is that you are selling
>your work to Imperium Games.  Imperium Games is purchasing your work, much
>the same as from a freelancer.  In essence, you ARE a freelance
>author/artist if you submit your work to JTAS."

Exactly the same with Steve Jackson Games, however designs that have been
in the public domain aren't going to be given the same weight as one that
was developed and submitted.  The legal issues generally aren't worth the
hassles.  However, posting something online isn't a death sentance,
especially if you don't post your final submission to the net.  


>> [me again] My hope is that the lists can be used to knock the rough edges
>off an article (or plug the gaping holes) so that the final submitted work
>is as good as you can make it.
>
>[Matt again] "Absolutely,for the purposes of feedback we highly encourage
>you to post your future article on the mailing lists.  It gives you a
>better idea of how your article looks through someone elses eyes.  They may
>find a mistake, or perhaps make a suggestion that would have otherwise gone
>unnoticed."

I don't think there is a problem with kicking around or fleshing out ideas
online, however if a near carbon copy of what you have posted in the public
domain is submitted to us, then our chance of accepting it is going to drop.


>I can understand SJG being different in this regard - since they already
>have a playtest site, they probably believe that this is enough of a forum
>to "thrash out" (sorry, Chris ;-) the design concepts and rules.

For SJ Games, the ideal situation is that an editor works with an author in
private and then the information is posted "publicly" in the Pyramid
playtest discussion.  For us, it is the ideal avenue for discussion as the
Editor, Line Editor, Author and everyone from SJ Games is paying attention
to THAT dissusion group, rather than the TML mailing list.   Now, if you
want to talk about the subject and run it by other people (say, the concept
of hydrogen factories in orbit of gas giants) before you submit your work,
then I don't think there is a problem.  If you cut and paste Leonard's
response into your final submission then expect SJ Games to be upset with you.


>[I know that if you sign the SJG disclaimer and submit something to them
>for publication, you cannot put the same thing up on your website. That's
>why Jesse's images are different to the ones in the published G:T books,
>for example].

Yep.  Your work becomes SJ Games property, and thus falls under the rules
of the SJ Games Online Policy
(http://www.sjgames.com/general/online_policy.html).


>Is this the official SJG position: "We already have a forum, so we don't
>need to reference the TML, thank you"?

It has nothing to do with the TML.  We would treat any submission that was
pulled from rec.games.frp.gurps the exact same way.



_________________________________________________________

Rev. Keith Johnson      /\     keith@sjgames.com
Assistant Webmaster    /()\    keithalanjohnson@home.com
Steve Jackson Games   /____\   reverendkeith@hotmail.com

 IMTU tm+ t4+@ tg++$ ru- ge-@ st+ pi+ he+ dr+ hi-@ zh+
_________________________________________________________ 

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1240
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